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Old 06-16-2017, 04:15 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Turbo project

How about some turbo love for the weekend!?!

My project is coming along...



Stainless weld-elle manifold (schd 40 elbows, schd 10 straight)
Mitsu Eclipse turbo - 14B TD05H
2.5" downpipe/exhaust - stainless
2.0" boost pipes, non-intercooled

Will start with 4psi spring in wastegate and work up from there.
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Old 06-20-2017, 10:06 AM   #2 (permalink)
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turbo
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Old 06-20-2017, 10:50 AM   #3 (permalink)
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turbo
Are you driving this yet? Looks like a T3/T4 turbo (57trim?). I'm curious how that spools up.

Mine is pretty small. From the math I've done with this combo I expect it to spool up pretty quickly. I hope so anyway. I want better lowend. I rarely wrap this thing, but it seems like I'm always deep in the throttle.

Ftoy, 40" Treps, 4.88 gears, 4.7:1 tcase, auto trans.
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Old 06-20-2017, 03:58 PM   #4 (permalink)
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It has to be above 2500 when you stand on it in high range or it not going any where. But when its in low it spools up to problem.
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Old 06-21-2017, 08:08 AM   #5 (permalink)
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It has to be above 2500 when you stand on it in high range or it not going any where. But when its in low it spools up to problem.
which turbo? How much boost?
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Old 06-21-2017, 10:10 AM   #6 (permalink)
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t3/t4 15 psi with race gas, 9 psi with 91 octane
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Old 06-24-2017, 09:49 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Did someone say 22r turbo?
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Old 06-26-2017, 07:43 AM   #8 (permalink)
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This turbo addition has taken me WAY longer than I expected. I had to teach myself how to TIG though, so to say there was a learning curve is an understatement. LOL!

I made my own kit because I really didn't see any kits that were aimed at the performance I want. The kits I've seen use turbos that are capable of 300HP, and that's way too big for the little 22r. We need a 200HP turbo which will spool up quickly! That's my goal anyway. Time will tell!

Also, with the 22re, I want to know how much boost I can actually run on the stock computer. I've got a 4psi spring in the wastegate, so I'm going to start there and work my way up. I'll have a wideband and stick it on the dyno to see how she acts as I move the boost up. Time will tell!
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Old 06-27-2017, 12:15 AM   #9 (permalink)
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which turbo are you using? what ratios and such and whatnot...curious about how much air it is flowing at 4psi
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Old 06-27-2017, 06:32 AM   #10 (permalink)
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What size of injectors and what ECU do you have?
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Old 06-27-2017, 10:24 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I'm using the stock turbo from a early 90's Mitsu Eclips (TD05H 14B). Stock, it's setup to run 14.5psi, so I ditched the stock wastegate actuator and bought an external gate off of ebay and a 4psi spring.

I've crunched the numbers on the efficiency of the engine and the compressor map and come up with the ideal spoolup and power gains.

4psi should come in by 1500RPM and give about +30HP/30TQ.
6psi should come in by 1750RPM and give about +45HP/50TQ.
8psi should come in by 1750RPM and give about +60HP/65TQ.
10psi should come in by 2000RPM and give about +70HP/80TQ.
12psi should come in by 2250RPM and give about +85HP/100TQ

I doubt this will be 100% accurate to the actual results, but it should be fairly close. I expect the spoolup to be a little slower than I've calculated, but it should be within 500RPM. I don't have a tach on the buggy though, and that wouldn't change the results anyway. It is what it is. I just know that the turbo shouldn't be too big for what I want, and isn't going to overspin on this engine. I have not intentions of going past 8psi, if that. This is just for reference.

I'm running the stock ECU and injectors (22re, non-turbo) until I can't. That's why I'm starting at 4psi. I'll have a wideband in it to see what's happening. I've heard the "7psi" and "4psi" max tales of the interweb, but never seen actual data to prove it. I plan on finding out what's real and making the assessment myself. Hopefully we all get something out of that.

I finished up the hotside stuff last night. Now to plumb oil/coolant feed/return, and then the boost piping. Once that's done I'm down to exhaust. Oh, I've got to extend the MAF harness. This takes forever with only a few hours a night to work on it. No rush though; it's getting hot here.

Also, I have plans for water/alcohol injection as well. I have a super simple kit that I'm going to start with. If it works, great. If not, I'll move on up to the better stuff. Again, it's something fun to mess with and see what works and what doesn't.
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Old 06-27-2017, 01:00 PM   #12 (permalink)
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where are you relocating the MAF to? When I moved mine from the stock drivers side front to near the charcoal canister on the passenger side firewall, I cut open the factory harness and separated out the wires from the harness and then just closed everything back up. that left me with plenty of length in the factory harness to reach from one corner to the other in the engine bay with no splices.

the nearest common ground spot where the factory harness gets grouped together was right where the harness runs through the intake plenum, by the injectors.


just something to think about before creating a bunch of splices and adding in a bunch of wire.

edit: found the picture in my build thread, post #227

http://www.pirate-4x4.ru/forum/15781569-post227.html

edit2: thanks for posting the part numbers, I'm looking forward to how it works out for you. it would be awesome to be able to source a cheap/used ebay turbo and run ~10psi and get ~170 hp coming on at or below 2000 rpm considering max rpm is around 6k, that should still net plenty of increase in useable power
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Old 06-27-2017, 02:37 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I'm running an FToy, so the ECU is moved. I'll double check to see if I can keep from splicing. MAF is going to front driver's side.

The turbo I'm using is a little smaller than a GT2860 turbo. A T3/T4 50trim is close too. You can find those for $150 all over ebay. These are smaller than the 57 trim that most kits come with.

The 14B, small 16G, GT2860, or 50 trim turbos may support around 300HP. A 57 trim turbo will support closer to 400HP. That's too big of a turbo for this engine, IMO. The 57 trim T3/T4 is more readily available though.

14B should spool 10psi by 2000RPM. GT2860 by 2250RPM, and 50trim by 2750. A 57trim would be closer to 3000RPM. These are just my calculations. I haven't tried this to see. I would imagine the manifold and piping design would impact the spoolup quite a bit too. I'm running a log manifold and 2" boost piping with no intercooler.
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Old 06-27-2017, 03:42 PM   #14 (permalink)
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https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/calcboost.html

here is a pretty fun and well thought out calculator.

I have way to much useless crap around my garage but not enough time, I'd really like to build a cheapo flow bench to test out some stock heads and EFI vs Carb stock intake manifolds.

How to Build a Flow Bench for Port and Flow Testing Cylinder Heads - Part 3



@Mr Stubs , I know that you have posted up your dyno numbers before from your last motor after adding the turbo, do you have the specs listed for it and how much air it is moving?

edit: still doing some digging, hope you don't mind if I post some notes in your thread

according to LC Engineering, http://www.lcengineering.com/LCTechP...nderHeads.html stock 22re heads flow approx. 130 CFM, their stage 2 160 cfm, stage 3 200 cfm, stage 5 250 cfm.

applying that through a calculator for NA engines, stock should theoretically support 187 hp if the rest of the system can keep up with it. https://www.gregraven.org/hotwater/c...airflow-hp.php

stage 2 230 hp, stage 3 288 hp, stage 5 360 hp.....obviously these are just hp based on airflow numbers and not actual real world situations.
Horsepower = (Air flow 1.6) 0.9

keeping in mind that a stock 22re produces roughly 114 hp. just saying that there is no reason why a stock head couldn't support the airflow to survive NA 180 hp as designed.

next step would be, can the intake manifold and throttle body support the airflow, can the exhaust ports and exhaust manifold support the airflow and ultimately can the fuel system support the airflow.

then can the engine support the cylinder pressure; head gasket, bolts, pistons, rods etc.

edit2: here is a good walkthrough with numbers on using turbo maps

https://itstillruns.com/pick-correct...e-4436563.html

garrett turbos also has a good article
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Old 06-28-2017, 10:15 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Getting 350bHP out of an NA 22R would be pretty expensive.

As far as turbos go, you can really get wrapped up into the minutia. The easiest way to decide on one is to decide on your target horsepower. As you mentioned, the 22R makes around 115bHP. Adding 50bHP would be a major improvement, we're looking for a turbo that can support 165bHP. That's about 15-20 #/min (bHP/10.5). Figure 10HP per 1PSI of boost, so you'll need that 15-20 #/min at 5-7psi (i.e. 1.5 pressure ratio).

So, here's a compressor map...


This turbo support ~45#/min max which is about 450-500bHP, so this one is probably too big. BUT, since Garret made all those notes we can still use this map for analysis.

So, the 22R makes 115HP at 4500RPM and that's where we want peak HP to stay, so we're shooting for 165HP (maybe 20#/min) @ 4500RPM @ 1.5PR.

Surge Line: So, how do we figure out when the turbo will spool up? Look at the surge line at 1.5PR. This one is about 8#/min. That's half the peak HP, so if HP is fairly linear with RPM (humor me) we could assume this turbo would spool up by half the peak HP RPM, so that's 2250RPM. This won't be exactly true, so fudge it up to 2500-2750RPM.

Efficiency: Now we need to determine if the turbo can support the HP we want. So, what efficiency island is 20#/min @ 1.5PR? Looks like that would be in the 74% island, which is great.

Overspeed: We also need to make sure we're not going to overspin the turbo and shorten the longevity. Max airflow point of 20#/min @ 1.5PR puts this turbo in the 70kRPM range which is plenty slow.

There's plenty of fudge factor here, but you're going to be hard pressed to find an exact perfect turbo. Just choose one that's readily available, and close to what you want. Choosing a turbo that spools up 500RPM sooner or slower won't make a huge difference, and either is still better than no turbo.
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Old 06-28-2017, 10:49 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Lots of other factors come into play with getting a turbo to spool faster as well. Timing curve, cam profile and compression are just a few. I can tell you that my GTx2867r on pain will open the gate @ 10psi right at 2600rpm. Another thing to not get hung up on is psi Vs. Hp.
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Old 06-28-2017, 11:18 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Lots of other factors come into play with getting a turbo to spool faster as well. Timing curve, cam profile and compression are just a few. I can tell you that my GTx2867r on pain will open the gate @ 10psi right at 2600rpm. Another thing to not get hung up on is psi Vs. Hp.
Name:  GTX2867_COMP_0.jpg
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so then this should be the turbo map for the one that you are using, correct? taken from garrets website

Quote:
Compressor
Inducer: 50mm
Exducer: 67mm
Trim: 55
A/R: .60

Turbine
Inducer: 54mm
Exducer: 47mm
Trim: 76
what cam and intake are you running on your setup?


edit: https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbo...hargers/gt2252 this looks like it could be a good option as well. am I correct inthinking that the larger and steeper "efficiency island" shows that the GT2252 turbo doesn't really move much more air with higher pressure ratio and rpm, in terms of CFM?

Name:  GT2252_COMP.jpg
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Quote:
Compressor
Inducer: 40mm
Exducer: 52mm
Trim: 60
A/R 0.51

Turbine
Inducer: 50mm
Exducer: 43mm
Trim: 72
A/R: .67
it "seems" to me that it would come on early as far as CFM goes it would move a decent amount of air even at lower PSI, though it would run the risk of getting hot and operating into the peak with continuous high load condition.
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Old 06-28-2017, 11:24 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Turbo project

I'll have to check if that's the right map for the gen2 Gtx or not.


The cam is a turbo grind of LCE. Their low boost grind is similar to what's in it now. The intake is the efi plenum with LC's bigger TB. The head is kind of a hybrid stage 3/5 Build to keep the power on low but still be able to flow up to 6500.


Edit... yes that's the map for the gtx.
Trim is different due to the TiAl housing though.

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Old 06-28-2017, 12:05 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I'll have to check if that's the right map for the gen2 Gtx or not.


The cam is a turbo grind of LCE. Their low boost grind is similar to what's in it now. The intake is the efi plenum with LC's bigger TB. The head is kind of a hybrid stage 3/5 Build to keep the power on low but still be able to flow up to 6500.


Edit... yes that's the map for the gtx.
Trim is different due to the TiAl housing though.
have you ever put your engine or rig on a dyno for tuning?


edit: adding in a couple more links. compressor map reading for dummies and another flow calculator that give many results by rpm
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Old 06-28-2017, 12:15 PM   #20 (permalink)
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have you ever put your engine or rig on a dyno for tuning?

Yes. Few months back did some tuning after making the turbo change. Was around 200 hp to the wheels @10psi.
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Old 06-28-2017, 01:51 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Yes. Few months back did some tuning after making the turbo change. Was around 200 hp to the wheels @10psi.
That's pretty good! 10psi on the stock engine should put out ~185bHP, so that headwork, cam, intake combo is making a nice improvement!


I'll be happy to see 100HP at the tires on higher boost on mine, but I doubt it's that high. I'm going through the auto, and have 40" Treps. That's going to hurt the numbers a lot.
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Old 06-28-2017, 02:00 PM   #22 (permalink)
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That's pretty good! 10psi on the stock engine should put out ~185bHP, so that headwork, cam, intake combo is making a nice improvement!





I'll be happy to see 100HP at the tires on higher boost on mine, but I doubt it's that high. I'm going through the auto, and have 40" Treps. That's going to hurt the numbers a lot.

There's a lot of work on the bottom end as well but,having a good combo and good BB charger makes the difference in spool up.
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Old 06-28-2017, 02:31 PM   #23 (permalink)
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There's a lot of work on the bottom end as well but,having a good combo and good BB charger makes the difference in spool up.
Running megasquirt?
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Old 06-28-2017, 03:10 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Propane.
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Old 06-28-2017, 04:18 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Propane.
just tuning timing with distributor?
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